I hate reading lists like this, it is so prescriptive it will take the pleasure away. Even worse asking for an adult sign off and making it part of an "excellence program".
Read what you like, not what is on a list. There is room to guide and suggest, but fixed lists to tick off are absolutely horrible.
I think it's useful for young people to be exposed to what's widely regarded as some of the best-written books out there, so that they might get an idea of what a really well-written book looks like.
What good pacing, characterization, plotting looks like, how to convey a great idea to the reader, without sounding preachy or bore him to tears. And most importantly, how to weave all these elements together into a cohesive whole, as most masterpieces do.
This way they can have a somewhat more critical eye of the more mainstream fiction they'll likely consume in much greater quantity.
I find that most mainstream SF or fantasy books consist of the same foundational elements - but add fantastic concepts or spectacle to the mix, which might grab a certain amount of interest, but must get these foundations right in order for the novel to remain compelling
I think the act of writing is a lossy transformation - someone raised on a steady diet of only sci-fi novels is bound to be only be capable of writing a lesser sci-fi novel.
In order for a writer to reach at least the level of mainstream fiction, the writer must bring some extra from his own - either coming from non-fiction literature, life experience, the rare spark of original genius, or well-executed fundamentals in books like the ones mentioned on the reading list.
> I find that most mainstream SF or fantasy books consist of the same foundational elements - but add fantastic concepts or spectacle to the mix
I think they also broaden the mind, because they make people imagine how other societies could function, how technology could change things, what could exist in the universe we do not know etc.
Historical fiction, and even more actual old writing, has some of the same impact, but is limited to what has happened, rather than what could happen.
> I think it's useful for young people to be exposed to what's widely regarded as some of the best-written books out there, so that they might get an idea of what a really well-written book looks like.
I agree entirely, but a list you have to complete is not the wat to do it.
Apologies.. I kinda had trouble communicating the idea I had in mind - when I was bashing SF, I wasn't rallying against novels of Hugo and Nebula quality. The word I was looking for is genre fiction.
Lately I've been consuming more of it than I would admit in polite company - LitRPG, Military SF, YA stuff,. - and quite a bit of it is aimed at a younger audience.
A lot of this stuff is well written and engaging, but highly derivative, and is patterned on classics.
I completely agree. The joy of reading comes from discovering stories that you truly connect with—not from checking off titles on a set list. While some reading lists can be helpful for inspiration, I find the “100 books you must read” type a bit off-putting. They can unintentionally suggest there’s only one right way to be a “good reader,” which just isn’t true.
Reading lists really give people the idea that reading is some mechanical task that has to be done in fixed time and has a potential to be optimized. This is how speed reading classes were invented.
The ability to read fast is not a bad thing. The compulsion to is harmful. Ideally you read at the pace you enjoy or at which you best absorb what you need. Being able to read fast and slow down for the important or relevant (to you) bits can be very useful for learning.
Making a mistake in a large easy hardly makes someone semi-literate. Almost every book you've read has gone through extensive editing to find such mistakes, even the most skilled authors make them.
The author claims they normally dislike must-read lists. I call their bluff: they seem a bit preoccupied with finding virtue, given their blog history. I doubt they will find it if they're surrendering judgment to the IQ club. Maybe its better than "10 hot summer reads", but its still an exercise regimen. Christopher Nguyen's "Value Capture" is a good rebuttal to this way of thinking.
I can see how my exploration of the Mensa list might come across differently than intended. My aim wasn't necessarily to endorse this specific list or the 'IQ club,' but rather to explore the experience, the friction and challenge, that comes from engaging with demanding texts, wherever they are found. For me, it was less about surrendering judgment and more about using the list as a specific, challenging prompt to sharpen critical thinking against difficult material. Perhaps 'exercise regimen' isn't far off, but ideally one that builds perspective rather than just ticking boxes.
Thanks for the recommendation on Christopher Nguyen's "Value Capture".
It's supposed to be prescriptive because its a literature education list.
Where we may agree is that Mensa isn't in the business of measuring education, but instead of horsepower.
And the reading way toward maximizing a developing child's base ability to think is to read as much as possible, which will necessarily be what piques their fancy much of the time.
But literature education and recreational reading shouldn't mean one doesn't engage in the other. Every high performing child does both, at least to meet the the standards with which I'm familiar.
Still I'm unsure as to why Mensa feels the need to cobble together a basic prep school reading list, if wildly uncurated.
To your point, something more in line with their rasion d'etre might be to provide short best of lists for recreational, slightly advanced reading in age appropriate genres.
It would be not as bad if it was intended for schools, but even then its still too prescriptive to require kids to read everything. The list PDF ends with this above the space for signatures:
> By signing below, we attest that _____________________________________ has read a complete and unabridged version of all the books as recorded on the Excellence in Reading 9-12 grade list above, and that this record is true.
If it was a list of "good books you might enjoy reading", I would have no problem with it. it is the idea you must read them all, even ones you dislike, that I think is wrong.
In the case of the plays it is preferable to see them than to read them.
I agree, and I encouraged my kids to read the classics, but I did not give them a list of stuff they must read. I suggested things I thought they would enjoy.
> Around 30yo, I got Gulliver's Travels as a gift. Wow. I loved it. Provided context for so many common clichés.
Another writer whose works are just a bunch of clichés. I was disappointed to find Shakespeare was the same. (that is supposed to be a joke, BTW).
I do not think it such a disaster to read those at 30. better to read them a bit later and enjoy them, than to read them earlier and not. What you enjoy does change over time.
I think the most important thing is to get kids to read, then to read anything reasonably good.
You do have some different definitions attitudes to mine which may account for part of it. For example:
> It took me a while to realize the point of the whole exercise of the Mensa list. It’s not to become well-read. That’s a side effect. The point is to lose your smugness. To get knocked off balance by something older, stranger, smarter than you. To stop assuming you know it all.
I would say those are not two different things. If you have not been affected by things that are "older, stranger, smarter than you" you are not well read!
That is true... I certainly did not have that awareness when I was that age. I had a period locked in my room between 17 and 19 reading anything I could Bram Stoker, Dickens, 1st World war history and so on... but did for the joy and was not fully aware of the impact until much later.
I would say most people would find the same about what they have read when young, and maybe even later. The impact is often pretty subtle and pervasive and you may never know.
Yes, but the purpose of reading those books is not for fun; just like going through a textbook will not be fun all the time. You are supposed to read them in order to train your mind, at least I think so. Especially if you're in Mensa.
I was never entirely sure what the purpose of Mensa is other than maybe as a sorof social club. I have been a member on and off - more off than on though.
You're fixated on the prescription and ignoring what it aims to treat. I think OP is onto something with their Good Will Hunting interpretation, the list is meant to humble as much as educate. And its not at all a bad list either.
Appallingly? I am not sure how else it would be ordered? A random order would be rough. The kids would have to scan through the list in order to find the book they read to rate and date the entry.
Almost any other order would be better, though I agree that a truly random order would be slightly worse. These are mostly fiction, so in the library they are shelved by the author's surname. (If this idea didn't occur to you, presumably you have never been in a library, which makes me wonder why you are commenting at all.) You could also group them by century, by original language, by country of origin, by mood, by difficulty, by length, or by primary themes. Any of those would be superior in suggesting to you what books you might want to read next on the basis of books you had already read.
While we're at it, just listing that information for each title would also be very valuable, even without reordering the list.
I mean, if you're up to reading Brave New World, I'd think that scanning through a list to rate and date isn't that difficult.
Aside: The rating and date for reading is just strange for this level of reader, also the having an adult sign off on it. It just seems so juvenile for anyone that is really reading Don Quixote, Lord of the Flies, or many of the other books in the list. Something like a 4th grader would need to do, not a 17 year old. I get that it's mostly following the formula from the earlier grade levels, but still, it should be revised.
Thank you for sharing the link, I embedded it a few times. How the list is interesting (alphabetical) - I wonder how they are rated by Mensa grade 9-12 year olds overall
Not just middlebrow, old middlebrow. The Good Earth? The Nine Taylors? This is every college educated boomer’s aspirational reading list, a mix of books they liked and books they’ll never read.
I was surprised to see how many of these were already assigned high school reading at my public high school. We went through maybe a quarter of the list? I do disagree with making it a checklist. Some of these books will end up being an absolute slog with no value to their reader, and kill progress in the list. Great Expectations was like that for me, and later Pride and Prejudice.
The article made this reading list seem like a good thing, but I looked at the reading list itself and it has a weird vibe. It is literally a checklist: "Check off the books as you read them." You're also supposed to rate each book from 1 to 5 stars, which is a weird way to engage with the books. At the end, you have to make a tax-form-like attestation that you have read "a complete and unabridged version of all the books and that this record is true", co-signed by an adult.
As for the list, it's basically a "Great works of Western literature" list that you'd expect to see in the 1970s. The concept seems to be that you must slog through the official important books (including The Fountainhead!) to prove your Mensan superiority, rather than encouraging a joy of reading.
Night is important, but I really don't recommend it for emotionally volatile teenagers. I was already mildly depressed when I was assigned it, and borderline suicidal after I finished it. Maybe read it in college when you have easier access to alcohol.
There’s controversy about this book - claims that some or all of it was fabricated. Terrible book to teach the holocaust with since a lot of gen Z or alpha either doesn’t think the holocaust happened or thinks it should have been worse. Giving them a book of fabrications plays into this narrative.
“ Franklin argues that the power of the narrative was achieved at the cost of literal truth, and that to insist that the work is purely factual is to ignore its literary sophistication”
“
Wiesel wrote in 1967 about a visit to a rebbe (a Hasidic rabbi) who he had not seen for 20 years. The rebbe is upset to learn that Wiesel has become a writer, and wants to know what he writes. "Stories," Wiesel tells him, " ... true stories":
About people you knew? "Yes, about people I might have known." About things that happened? "Yes, about things that happened or could have happened." But they did not? "No, not all of them did. In fact, some were invented from almost the beginning to almost the end." The Rebbe leaned forward as if to measure me up and said with more sorrow than anger: That means you are writing lies! I did not answer immediately. The scolded child within me had nothing to say in his defense. Yet, I had to justify myself: "Things are not that simple, Rebbe. Some events do take place but are not true; others are—although they never occurred."[68]“
It was the same year that I read this crap book that they forced me to read Lolita by Nabokov. I realized that year that “classic literature” was decadent and degenerate - and often so were my teachers!
Incidentally, I agree with you on Night. I have visited Auschwitz 3 times, read widely on the horrors. It is a disheartening, horrible, read and experience to visit, but something more should do, maybe we would have more peace in our world... although I doubt it.
Maybe just purchase a large quantity of books, or better, give free access to a library and let them pick anything they wish to read.
I'm picking up some SF and fantasy in my 40s but I feel the fire is gone somehow. There are few books that I'm willing to burn candles. It would be a lot more fun to read them when I was young.
Kerouac and Burroughs are objectively awful. I still think that Kerouac's popularity as a writer was an industry practical joke. Speaking of both skill and content. A People's History used to be an AP History book, so appropriate for very mature kids with teaching support but the books is in a different category. Assuming that the Mensa list is pretty much just an exposure of standard prep school English literature list to the masses, albeit uncurated so as to make it difficult to use. There's too much promotion of substance abuse in Thompson books to qualify them as appropriate for kids, even if the books are otherwise good. Usually high schools aren't in the business of radicalizing students with Chomsky as well as other very political books. Kids can pick that up in college and beyond.
In general, these books are categorically different. The provided list isn't missing them. They'd just be on a different list.
Infinite jest is a bad book. No, I will not read your fking calculus page alongside the other 1000+ pages of nonsense. The idea of assigning it even to mensa kids is exactly why Mensa has such a poor reputation. Mensa famously has the reputation of its members being extremely autistic. Books like this all but guarantee it if they are read by young, impressionable minds.
Ulysses is only good because Joyce was a coomer.
Candide is actually good and more people need to read it.
The others you listed are post modern neo Marxism or drug abusers which will teach your kids to hate your teacher and the whole idea of education. Why not just throw on “pedagogy of the oppressed” to put the final nail into the coffin of your kid giving a fk about what your teacher teaches (“sorry, I’m not doing your homework you colonizer shitlord, I refuse to participate in the banking model of education”.
Also reminds me of philosopher John Senior's "Thousand Good Books" as a counter to the "Great books" -- heuristic that if you've heard of the book and it's old enough, then it's probably worth reading and studying. https://thelifetimereader.substack.com/p/the-thousand-good-b...
Other good sources include the list of books in the back of Mortimer Adler's How To Read A Book for a Western Canon and Wm. Theodore de Bary's The Great Civilized Conversation: Education for a World Community and Finding Wisdom In The East Asian Classics for East Asian Canons.
While the reading list as a thing in itself seem to be criticized, I agree with the point of developing stamina and to become more capable of critical thinking. If the story element comes easier to some people, its a great approach. The point being to push the reader outside simplistic but comfortable thinking and build qualities able to confront the evident but often subtle complexities.
Far better to be creating things during grades 9-12 than reading these tired old books.
I learn so many more things so much faster today because of the new AI tools.
The big divide among students in the future will be between those who use AI to learn faster and accomplish more, vs those who use AI to avoid working or thinking
OT: can anybody recommend a book for a gifted kid (mathematics)?
He knows prime numbers, square roots, exponents and can read. Isn't even in school yet (5 years old).
I'm definitely by no means capable of giving proper advise here as it's been a long time since I've last interacted with kids of that age. But one anecdote:
When I was in the early teens (so quite a bit older than the kid in your case), I got my hands on a book about set theory, and it absolutely blew my mind. The concept of countability, axiomatic definition of functions and so on really gave me a completely different perception of math. Up until then, math seemed to be something that follows nature, so to speak, three plus two makes five because if I have three eggs and two eggs its five eggs or whatever primary school taught me. I remember back then that I'd wish that some teacher would have made me aware earlier of a more formal, axiomatic approach to math and all that, that there is a more fundamental basis to it than "that's just what it is". It really furthered my interest in math, and while I ultimately eventually moved over to CS, it definitely had quite a fundamental impact on me back then.
The particular book I've read was in German (I still have it) and unlikely to be ideal for a 5 year old; just wanted to give this little personal anecdote somewhat related to your question.
I don't think I was gifted per se, but a curious kid. My mom was a fan of Asimov, who had written books on a huge array of topics, and there may be a few math titles in there. But at the same time, introducing a kid with math talent to science isn't such a bad thing either.
I wish I remembered the series of math books that my school system used. It was during the "new math" movement. We learned about sets in first grade. Proofs were introduced fairly early. There were problems for which "no answer" was the correct answer.
If you could find a collection of the Mathematical Games articles from Scientific American, those were entertaining and required little background knowledge, but conveyed the fun of math.
Geometry is a good subject because it doesn't have very many prerequisites other than basic arithmetic, and the older textbooks were mostly about proofs. (Note I'm biased, proofs are what made math come alive for me).
I was like that as a child, but after enough years of wider academic exposure as a student, decided I liked applying mathematical ability towards electronics, business, and chemicals better than average compared to becoming a real mathematician.
Science-fiction can be stimulating in that regard, someone who likes science in addition to math might be the one to turn some of it into science-reality someday :)
Eventually I came to the conclusion that the better math textbooks had more than just math. One of the most enlightening math books I had was a late 19th century antique text "Progressive Higher Arithmetic" which was never in one of my courses, but was given to me when I was an old teenager and it could be an interesting reference in any century. Not only the differences in the way teaching has been done in the past, but a nice leather-bound volume with numerous blank pages among those adjacent to the front & back covers, covered with poetry written by the original owner. With a pen and common inkwell, in beautiful handwriting there is one that I can not forget:
Honestly, I think you might be missing something here. "Azimov on Numbers" was maybe the most real math book I read as a kid. I don't know of any other book aimed at a kid's reading level that covers aleph-null and Cantor sets.
One might ask, what exactly is the point of a reading list?
As a recommendation set between friends ("you must read Borges and Sebald! You'll love them"), fine.
But lists give the vibe of someone desperately trying to preserve The Culture, whatever that is. And of course once such a list becomes encoded in the school board or university course curriculum, it instantly becomes calcified and a chore, even if some of the entries on the list are appealing to some of the readers. Pity the teacher who has to teach /Catcher in the Rye/ for the tenth year, and pity their students.
So the real challenge is how to communicate The Culture through reading, without killing the joy. I wish I knew the answer. Perhaps it boils down to teachers being allowed to innovate. Maybe we need more teachers with big theater kid energy. I dont know. Id be interested to know what happens in non-Western cultures too...is this problem universal?
I was a member of Mensa briefly but found it boring and so let my membership lapse.
My early reading history, in order:
- a few childhood stories read by my father,
- textbooks from school,
- comic books! I didn't have money to buy them but found that if I went into the store while the staff were busy (before and after school) serving customers, no one noticed that I was blasting thru the latest Superman.
I paid attention in class, made good grades but didn't study much, nor did I read books unless absolutely forced to. I probably read fewer than 4 books before college. I was conscripted by my father to assist him in carpentry and auto repair (which taught me a great deal about how the world works).
I credit DC Comics for giving me a high reading speed, the ability to concentrate (possibly I should say "to attend"!8-)) and consequently, any "high IQ" that allowed me to score well on tests, win awards, make good grades and join Mensa years later. I also credit being my father's apprentice.
tl;dr Reading books on a list, even a Mensa list, will not likely make you smart.
The cultural canon in the USA will lean towards that. I will say that, if we are to suggest more global reading, concrete examples are always welcome! I would of course recommend Journey to the West. Even among the Four Great Classical Novels it has huge lasting influence
They all pretty much sit within a European/American spectrum of "worthy" works - there is a dominance of caucasian male thinking embodied within this list: it's not very broad, even with the odd hat tip to a Bronte sister and Maya Angelou. Nothing from 80% of the World's population, all rooted in a classical Western school of writing theory. Dull.
I also have a concern that they aren't a great foundation for a young person approaching adulthood trying to understand their place in the World and their own beliefs and values about themselves and the World they live in.
As you would expect of adult literature, some of them have sex and sexuality as themes that are explored by protagonists, subplots and subtexts. While this is something we should expect literature to play a part in, and it is of course healthy for adults to consider their own feelings relating to sex and sexuality based on their own contexts and needs through art forms like literature, I'm not sure throwing that at a 9th grader feels quite right. Maybe it is. I think it depends on the child.
The worst crime here though, is that this list is composed of books that are only considered good by the "educated" literarti.
There aren't many page turners that will keep a younger mind engaged and excited. There's only a few that stand out as an opportunity to let a curious reader explore their changing selves through the context of an interesting imagined World - the only real point of literature - in a way that will stimulate and excite their curiosity for the World they are actually growing up in.
And y'know, I'm a huge Shakespeare fan (I live in London, regular attendee of Shakespeare productions from all the usual companies), but this is leaning into some weird material. All 154 sonnets? Much Ado, Hamlet & King Lear, but no Romeo & Juliet or Macbeth? Huh.
Also, I see you, Ayn Rand fans. I see you. No. The Fountainhead is not a good book, she isn't a good writer, and the philosophy she espoused is not justification for you behaving the way you do. Don't try and get grades 9-12 into your little weird cult, you unsympathetic self-absorbed weirdos.
Yet, many if not most people would like an education that is informed by educated literati. People pay big money for it, for good reason. Disadvantaged kids are absolutely starved for it, in more ways than one. Is the "worst crime" when they are exposed to it or aren't?
>I also have a concern that they aren't a great foundation for a young person approaching adulthood trying to understand their place in the World and their own beliefs and values about themselves and the World they live in.
Is your concern valuable because your opinion of a standard literature list is that the books are mediocre or provide a mediocre education? Why should we care that you, specifically, are concerned? Or why you, specifically, see the list as mediocre and dull?
You seem to be implying that literature has to socialize kids to values (those that you prefer, I assume). You seem to be perturbed that everything that a child reads may not cater to that goal.
What I see is an essay whining about how standard English lit material isn't teaching kids political material that the writer prefers.
Ironic to the post-author's role as a literature critic, the post is too indirect and employs too many words toward expressing that complaint.
> Yet, many if not most people would like an education that is informed by educated literati.
That's because in the past showing that you're "educated" by virtue signalling a particular experience with a particular type of education would allow you an inside track to social groups and employment of value.
If there is anywhere in the World where we should question the value of that, it's on a forum dedicated to helping entrepreneurs build new things and to disrupt the World away from that kind of thinking.
> You seem to be implying that literature has to socialize kids to values
Literature does socialize kids to values, whether you or I like it or not. It socializes adults too: that's the point of literature. We're all just stochastic parrots. Literature - and all other art - shapes what we parrot.
I think that when choosing a list of eminent reading material for 9-12th graders, you're implicitly choosing a set of values for them. It should require thoughtfulness as to what you're hoping to achieve with it. I'm questioning the values presented in this list in terms of breadth, depth and appropriateness.
And yes, I also happen to think a lot of it is very dull writing liked by fusty old men in universities, rather than being a list of material that makes a person of impressionable age take something of it to use for themselves as they go out into the World. It's a missed opportunity. It is therefore dull and mediocre, in my view.
I'm allowed to share my view on this mater as a comment, on a site dedicated to people sharing their opinions as comments. I'm sorry that my doing so seems to have upset you.
What I see in your reply is a monologue expressing how you are affronted by someone saying things you disagree with for reasons you can't explain other than you seem to find it tiresome, and you're not quite sure why that's allowed to go without comment, so here, here's your comment on it, but why on Earth did that person post that comment that is just so... so... commenty... ?
Thank you for highlighting the salient point: this list has a reason for existing. It's not just a set of books chosen at random or some such, it's a small group explicitly selected.
As such it's entirely valid to question both the selections themselves as well as the purpose for creating the list in the first place.
As an example, I find it very difficult to imagine the world being improves in anyway whatsoever by requiring people to read fountain head.
I read, on average, 100 books a year. Anna Karenina was on my list for a long time and I read it back in 2023.
With 100 books a year, I’m averaging two books a week. It took me three full months to make it through that slog; hoping to find one fucking redeeming factor for it.
Let me tell you: there is absolutely no reason anyone should read that novel unless the intention is to make one hate reading.
Can we please stop making kids read books that fucking suck while telling them it’s somehow good for them to do so? We wonder why reading is seen as a slog and few do it; instead focusing on their phones or Netflix watchlist.
The first paragraph of the Wikipedia article tells you all you need to know about Anna Karenina.
> By the time he was finishing up the last installments, Tolstoy was in an anguished state of mind and, having come to hate [the book], finished it unwillingly.
This isn’t a criticism on you - in fact this isn’t anything about you specifically however the 100 books a year made me think of this.
The folks I know who read a lot more than average tend these fall into camps:
The ones who seem to have the best recall for the material they’ve read - like recalling very specific things from any given book they’ve read. They read about 12-16 books a year.
Then you have the ferocious readers, some of which I can personally attest read anywhere from 30-60 books a year, maybe even more. They however don’t have the same strength of recall. They can often give good synopsis of information they’ve read, but will struggle to recall specifics without looking it up or having to find a book in question and re-skim it for more relevant information etc.
Now achievement wise both groups have done fine but the methodical 12-16 books a year folks seem to make more knowledge gains over time - forgetting less stuff, basically.
I’m not sure which is better, or even if there is a better, but this is something I’ve noticed about volume vs time taken to digest books slower.
Do you read a lot of short works? Fast reader? or just constantly reading at every opportunity? That’s a huge amount of reading — I was able to hit 20 books last year but that included a re-read of all 7 Harry Potters, so quite light reading.
Do you feel like you retain things from all 100 books?
If you take the assumption that most books average out to ~350 pages in length, then you get a pretty good heuristic that if you read a minimum of N pages per day, then you're likely to complete at least N books per year.
10 pages per day gets you 10 books per year, 50 for 50, 100 for 100, etc.
Pages read is a more useful metric in general. A process goal that leads to the outcome.
I used to be VERY into police procedurals: John Sanford, Lee Child, and William Kent Krueger. I still read them, but during lockdown I made a conscious decision to widen my horizons.
Some of my favorites over the last year:
All the Light We Cannot See by Anthony Doerr
Most of Joe Abercrombie; particularly the First Law series.
Why do you assume your experience is the same an everyone’s? Is yours the only opinion in the world? I would expect someone who reads a thousand books a decade to have a more nuanced opinion. Instead you spew self righteous arrogance.
Our daughter counted AK as her favorite book for years, though now I suspect she'd choose Little Women or any of the last five William Gibson books as her fav.
She's read many of these books multiple times. Of course, she's never had a reading list to do, so I'm sure it helps that she chose them on her own. She also read Langston Hughes self-collected "Best of" treasury he released towards the end of his life. And, she has just bailed on other books, like effing Wuthering Heights, ick!
I can't imagine caring what Mensa thinks anybody should read, let alone thinking that anybody should care what I think about what Mensa thinks anybody should read. And between the interminable list of several-sentence-long book reports (...why?), the writing is just one bland, melodramatic, Very Emphatic "not X but Y" after another.
Groucho's quote "I'd never be a member of any club that would have me as a member."
And one of our favorite Columbo episodes (all free on Tubi) that features a murder in a very Mensa-style club, titled "The Bye-Bye Sky High I.Q. Murder Case".
I hate reading lists like this, it is so prescriptive it will take the pleasure away. Even worse asking for an adult sign off and making it part of an "excellence program".
Read what you like, not what is on a list. There is room to guide and suggest, but fixed lists to tick off are absolutely horrible.
I think it's useful for young people to be exposed to what's widely regarded as some of the best-written books out there, so that they might get an idea of what a really well-written book looks like.
What good pacing, characterization, plotting looks like, how to convey a great idea to the reader, without sounding preachy or bore him to tears. And most importantly, how to weave all these elements together into a cohesive whole, as most masterpieces do.
This way they can have a somewhat more critical eye of the more mainstream fiction they'll likely consume in much greater quantity.
I find that most mainstream SF or fantasy books consist of the same foundational elements - but add fantastic concepts or spectacle to the mix, which might grab a certain amount of interest, but must get these foundations right in order for the novel to remain compelling
I think the act of writing is a lossy transformation - someone raised on a steady diet of only sci-fi novels is bound to be only be capable of writing a lesser sci-fi novel.
In order for a writer to reach at least the level of mainstream fiction, the writer must bring some extra from his own - either coming from non-fiction literature, life experience, the rare spark of original genius, or well-executed fundamentals in books like the ones mentioned on the reading list.
> I find that most mainstream SF or fantasy books consist of the same foundational elements - but add fantastic concepts or spectacle to the mix
I think they also broaden the mind, because they make people imagine how other societies could function, how technology could change things, what could exist in the universe we do not know etc.
Historical fiction, and even more actual old writing, has some of the same impact, but is limited to what has happened, rather than what could happen.
> I think it's useful for young people to be exposed to what's widely regarded as some of the best-written books out there, so that they might get an idea of what a really well-written book looks like.
I agree entirely, but a list you have to complete is not the wat to do it.
Apologies.. I kinda had trouble communicating the idea I had in mind - when I was bashing SF, I wasn't rallying against novels of Hugo and Nebula quality. The word I was looking for is genre fiction.
Lately I've been consuming more of it than I would admit in polite company - LitRPG, Military SF, YA stuff,. - and quite a bit of it is aimed at a younger audience.
A lot of this stuff is well written and engaging, but highly derivative, and is patterned on classics.
I completely agree. The joy of reading comes from discovering stories that you truly connect with—not from checking off titles on a set list. While some reading lists can be helpful for inspiration, I find the “100 books you must read” type a bit off-putting. They can unintentionally suggest there’s only one right way to be a “good reader,” which just isn’t true.
Reading lists really give people the idea that reading is some mechanical task that has to be done in fixed time and has a potential to be optimized. This is how speed reading classes were invented.
The ability to read fast is not a bad thing. The compulsion to is harmful. Ideally you read at the pace you enjoy or at which you best absorb what you need. Being able to read fast and slow down for the important or relevant (to you) bits can be very useful for learning.
Also, don't take reading advice from semi-literates. FTA:
> The list doesn’t coddle, like the American mind has become.
"Coddle" is a verb. Minds do not "become" a verb. The sentence needs a rewrite.
Making a mistake in a large easy hardly makes someone semi-literate. Almost every book you've read has gone through extensive editing to find such mistakes, even the most skilled authors make them.
I thought it was a very well-written article.
The author claims they normally dislike must-read lists. I call their bluff: they seem a bit preoccupied with finding virtue, given their blog history. I doubt they will find it if they're surrendering judgment to the IQ club. Maybe its better than "10 hot summer reads", but its still an exercise regimen. Christopher Nguyen's "Value Capture" is a good rebuttal to this way of thinking.
I can see how my exploration of the Mensa list might come across differently than intended. My aim wasn't necessarily to endorse this specific list or the 'IQ club,' but rather to explore the experience, the friction and challenge, that comes from engaging with demanding texts, wherever they are found. For me, it was less about surrendering judgment and more about using the list as a specific, challenging prompt to sharpen critical thinking against difficult material. Perhaps 'exercise regimen' isn't far off, but ideally one that builds perspective rather than just ticking boxes.
Thanks for the recommendation on Christopher Nguyen's "Value Capture".
Fair enough! Ain't nothing wrong with a regimen - I just think reflecting and choosing is part of the challenge.
It's supposed to be prescriptive because its a literature education list.
Where we may agree is that Mensa isn't in the business of measuring education, but instead of horsepower.
And the reading way toward maximizing a developing child's base ability to think is to read as much as possible, which will necessarily be what piques their fancy much of the time.
But literature education and recreational reading shouldn't mean one doesn't engage in the other. Every high performing child does both, at least to meet the the standards with which I'm familiar.
Still I'm unsure as to why Mensa feels the need to cobble together a basic prep school reading list, if wildly uncurated.
To your point, something more in line with their rasion d'etre might be to provide short best of lists for recreational, slightly advanced reading in age appropriate genres.
It would be not as bad if it was intended for schools, but even then its still too prescriptive to require kids to read everything. The list PDF ends with this above the space for signatures:
> By signing below, we attest that _____________________________________ has read a complete and unabridged version of all the books as recorded on the Excellence in Reading 9-12 grade list above, and that this record is true.
If it was a list of "good books you might enjoy reading", I would have no problem with it. it is the idea you must read them all, even ones you dislike, that I think is wrong.
In the case of the plays it is preferable to see them than to read them.
Older me thinks cultural literacy is important. Like the origin of idioms, catch phrases, parables, tropes, identity, etc.
Although I read A LOT as a kid, I skipped most of the classics. (Meaning: anything not sci-fi, fantasy, or non-fiction.)
Around 30yo, I got Gulliver's Travels as a gift. Wow. I loved it. Provided context for so many common clichés.
So I started to check other classics off the list (as able). I wish I'd started earlier. Face palm slap.
Good, bad, or indifferent, being exposed to the origins of ideas expanded my worldview and gave me appreciation for what followed.
I agree, and I encouraged my kids to read the classics, but I did not give them a list of stuff they must read. I suggested things I thought they would enjoy.
> Around 30yo, I got Gulliver's Travels as a gift. Wow. I loved it. Provided context for so many common clichés.
Another writer whose works are just a bunch of clichés. I was disappointed to find Shakespeare was the same. (that is supposed to be a joke, BTW).
I do not think it such a disaster to read those at 30. better to read them a bit later and enjoy them, than to read them earlier and not. What you enjoy does change over time.
I think the most important thing is to get kids to read, then to read anything reasonably good.
Exactly the point I made in the essay.
You are more positive than me about it.
You do have some different definitions attitudes to mine which may account for part of it. For example:
> It took me a while to realize the point of the whole exercise of the Mensa list. It’s not to become well-read. That’s a side effect. The point is to lose your smugness. To get knocked off balance by something older, stranger, smarter than you. To stop assuming you know it all.
I would say those are not two different things. If you have not been affected by things that are "older, stranger, smarter than you" you are not well read!
That is true... I certainly did not have that awareness when I was that age. I had a period locked in my room between 17 and 19 reading anything I could Bram Stoker, Dickens, 1st World war history and so on... but did for the joy and was not fully aware of the impact until much later.
I would say most people would find the same about what they have read when young, and maybe even later. The impact is often pretty subtle and pervasive and you may never know.
Yes, but the purpose of reading those books is not for fun; just like going through a textbook will not be fun all the time. You are supposed to read them in order to train your mind, at least I think so. Especially if you're in Mensa.
I was never entirely sure what the purpose of Mensa is other than maybe as a sorof social club. I have been a member on and off - more off than on though.
I guess as you say, it's a social club of sorts. I imagine that they could instill some good values in younger children/teenagers, and so on.
But this is all guessing.
I agree. Though a lot of those books are great and something a person would probably want to have on their reading list.
You're fixated on the prescription and ignoring what it aims to treat. I think OP is onto something with their Good Will Hunting interpretation, the list is meant to humble as much as educate. And its not at all a bad list either.
I like reading what’s on the list. Otherwise I wouldn’t have heard of 90% of these books!
[dead]
Though the blog post is more thoughtful and reflective, here's the actual reading list (PDF warning): https://www.mensaforkids.org/achieve/excellence-in-reading/e...
Appallingly, it's alphabetized by title.
Appallingly? I am not sure how else it would be ordered? A random order would be rough. The kids would have to scan through the list in order to find the book they read to rate and date the entry.
Almost any other order would be better, though I agree that a truly random order would be slightly worse. These are mostly fiction, so in the library they are shelved by the author's surname. (If this idea didn't occur to you, presumably you have never been in a library, which makes me wonder why you are commenting at all.) You could also group them by century, by original language, by country of origin, by mood, by difficulty, by length, or by primary themes. Any of those would be superior in suggesting to you what books you might want to read next on the basis of books you had already read.
While we're at it, just listing that information for each title would also be very valuable, even without reordering the list.
Author's last name I think.
I mean, if you're up to reading Brave New World, I'd think that scanning through a list to rate and date isn't that difficult.
Aside: The rating and date for reading is just strange for this level of reader, also the having an adult sign off on it. It just seems so juvenile for anyone that is really reading Don Quixote, Lord of the Flies, or many of the other books in the list. Something like a 4th grader would need to do, not a 17 year old. I get that it's mostly following the formula from the earlier grade levels, but still, it should be revised.
Thank you for sharing the link, I embedded it a few times. How the list is interesting (alphabetical) - I wonder how they are rated by Mensa grade 9-12 year olds overall
Surprisingly middlebrow.
Ha!
Honestly, that could be the tagline for MENSA as a whole.
Not just middlebrow, old middlebrow. The Good Earth? The Nine Taylors? This is every college educated boomer’s aspirational reading list, a mix of books they liked and books they’ll never read.
I was surprised to see how many of these were already assigned high school reading at my public high school. We went through maybe a quarter of the list? I do disagree with making it a checklist. Some of these books will end up being an absolute slog with no value to their reader, and kill progress in the list. Great Expectations was like that for me, and later Pride and Prejudice.
The article made this reading list seem like a good thing, but I looked at the reading list itself and it has a weird vibe. It is literally a checklist: "Check off the books as you read them." You're also supposed to rate each book from 1 to 5 stars, which is a weird way to engage with the books. At the end, you have to make a tax-form-like attestation that you have read "a complete and unabridged version of all the books and that this record is true", co-signed by an adult.
As for the list, it's basically a "Great works of Western literature" list that you'd expect to see in the 1970s. The concept seems to be that you must slog through the official important books (including The Fountainhead!) to prove your Mensan superiority, rather than encouraging a joy of reading.
The list: https://www.mensaforkids.org/achieve/excellence-in-reading/e...
At what point can you just read about a book instead of reading the actual book?
The Fountainhead seems like a good place to start...
Night is important, but I really don't recommend it for emotionally volatile teenagers. I was already mildly depressed when I was assigned it, and borderline suicidal after I finished it. Maybe read it in college when you have easier access to alcohol.
I should add that point as a comment on the essay, thank YOU - I will link to it
Night shocked me in a way I didn't know I could still be shocked. I think it has given me a very helpful perspective in the following 35 years.
There’s controversy about this book - claims that some or all of it was fabricated. Terrible book to teach the holocaust with since a lot of gen Z or alpha either doesn’t think the holocaust happened or thinks it should have been worse. Giving them a book of fabrications plays into this narrative.
“ Franklin argues that the power of the narrative was achieved at the cost of literal truth, and that to insist that the work is purely factual is to ignore its literary sophistication”
“
Wiesel wrote in 1967 about a visit to a rebbe (a Hasidic rabbi) who he had not seen for 20 years. The rebbe is upset to learn that Wiesel has become a writer, and wants to know what he writes. "Stories," Wiesel tells him, " ... true stories": About people you knew? "Yes, about people I might have known." About things that happened? "Yes, about things that happened or could have happened." But they did not? "No, not all of them did. In fact, some were invented from almost the beginning to almost the end." The Rebbe leaned forward as if to measure me up and said with more sorrow than anger: That means you are writing lies! I did not answer immediately. The scolded child within me had nothing to say in his defense. Yet, I had to justify myself: "Things are not that simple, Rebbe. Some events do take place but are not true; others are—although they never occurred."[68]“
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_(memoir)
It was the same year that I read this crap book that they forced me to read Lolita by Nabokov. I realized that year that “classic literature” was decadent and degenerate - and often so were my teachers!
Incidentally, I agree with you on Night. I have visited Auschwitz 3 times, read widely on the horrors. It is a disheartening, horrible, read and experience to visit, but something more should do, maybe we would have more peace in our world... although I doubt it.
haha - yes, in senior/high school my teachers were the same!
Most of these books require the person to be 30+ years old to make them appealing.
Forcing kids to read stuff only makes them hate reading.
Maybe just purchase a large quantity of books, or better, give free access to a library and let them pick anything they wish to read.
I'm picking up some SF and fantasy in my 40s but I feel the fire is gone somehow. There are few books that I'm willing to burn candles. It would be a lot more fun to read them when I was young.
Anything by Lem and some early Wells still provide great joy at the age of 61!
Thanks for the recommendations, I'll definitely take a look.
Ah, wish I could claw back that feeling when I burnt candles to read the Dragonlance chronicles when 20.
Have you tried the murderbot diaries? Popular among most people and especially people here.
Thanks, I just put up a hold request in my local library.
Link to the actual reading list: https://www.mensaforkids.org/achieve/excellence-in-reading/e...
All great books but missing some important items:
- Candide
- A Peoples History...
- Manufacturing Consent
- Dharma Bums
- Naked Lunch/Western Lands
- Infinite Jest
- Something Thompson, Campaign Trail '72 maybe.
Kerouac and Burroughs are objectively awful. I still think that Kerouac's popularity as a writer was an industry practical joke. Speaking of both skill and content. A People's History used to be an AP History book, so appropriate for very mature kids with teaching support but the books is in a different category. Assuming that the Mensa list is pretty much just an exposure of standard prep school English literature list to the masses, albeit uncurated so as to make it difficult to use. There's too much promotion of substance abuse in Thompson books to qualify them as appropriate for kids, even if the books are otherwise good. Usually high schools aren't in the business of radicalizing students with Chomsky as well as other very political books. Kids can pick that up in college and beyond.
In general, these books are categorically different. The provided list isn't missing them. They'd just be on a different list.
That last one you're trying to think of is Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72.
Yeah, I was trying to say to include something from Thompson, CT72 is to me, the better balance of gonzo.
Ah, I see.
Infinite jest is a bad book. No, I will not read your fking calculus page alongside the other 1000+ pages of nonsense. The idea of assigning it even to mensa kids is exactly why Mensa has such a poor reputation. Mensa famously has the reputation of its members being extremely autistic. Books like this all but guarantee it if they are read by young, impressionable minds.
Ulysses is only good because Joyce was a coomer.
Candide is actually good and more people need to read it.
The others you listed are post modern neo Marxism or drug abusers which will teach your kids to hate your teacher and the whole idea of education. Why not just throw on “pedagogy of the oppressed” to put the final nail into the coffin of your kid giving a fk about what your teacher teaches (“sorry, I’m not doing your homework you colonizer shitlord, I refuse to participate in the banking model of education”.
Pedagogy of the Oppressed would unironically be a better suggestion than half the books on the list.
I wasn't trying to be exhaustive, but good suggestion!
You say "post modern neo marxist drug abuser" like it's a bad thing...
Clearly hasn't lived it.
Reminds me of the "Great Books" program that Liberal Arts colleges like St. Johns have adopted. https://www.sjc.edu/academic-programs/undergraduate/great-bo....
Also reminds me of philosopher John Senior's "Thousand Good Books" as a counter to the "Great books" -- heuristic that if you've heard of the book and it's old enough, then it's probably worth reading and studying. https://thelifetimereader.substack.com/p/the-thousand-good-b...
St John's also has an Eastern Classics master's program reading list for works from India, China, and Japan: https://www.sjc.edu/academic-programs/graduate/masters-easte...
Other good sources include the list of books in the back of Mortimer Adler's How To Read A Book for a Western Canon and Wm. Theodore de Bary's The Great Civilized Conversation: Education for a World Community and Finding Wisdom In The East Asian Classics for East Asian Canons.
Fabulous, I did not know about those resources, thank you. Will review carefully.
All reading lists will have books you don't care for (Moby-Dick) and books you think should have been included (Flowers for Algernon).
Just peruse the ones that look interesting to you, then move on to the next list.
While the reading list as a thing in itself seem to be criticized, I agree with the point of developing stamina and to become more capable of critical thinking. If the story element comes easier to some people, its a great approach. The point being to push the reader outside simplistic but comfortable thinking and build qualities able to confront the evident but often subtle complexities.
Far better to be creating things during grades 9-12 than reading these tired old books.
I learn so many more things so much faster today because of the new AI tools.
The big divide among students in the future will be between those who use AI to learn faster and accomplish more, vs those who use AI to avoid working or thinking
>I learn so many more things so much faster today because of the new AI tools.
Which could allow more time for recreational reading . . .
Doing both has got to be better than only one.
>those who use AI to learn faster and accomplish more, vs those who use AI to avoid working or thinking
Could be already underway :\
btw not my downvote, corrective upvote actually
Here is the full list [pdf]: https://www.mensaforkids.org/achieve/excellence-in-reading/e...
I would have expected a Mensa reading list for Americans to be in non-English languages. Maybe Homer in the original Greek.
OT: can anybody recommend a book for a gifted kid (mathematics)? He knows prime numbers, square roots, exponents and can read. Isn't even in school yet (5 years old).
I'm definitely by no means capable of giving proper advise here as it's been a long time since I've last interacted with kids of that age. But one anecdote:
When I was in the early teens (so quite a bit older than the kid in your case), I got my hands on a book about set theory, and it absolutely blew my mind. The concept of countability, axiomatic definition of functions and so on really gave me a completely different perception of math. Up until then, math seemed to be something that follows nature, so to speak, three plus two makes five because if I have three eggs and two eggs its five eggs or whatever primary school taught me. I remember back then that I'd wish that some teacher would have made me aware earlier of a more formal, axiomatic approach to math and all that, that there is a more fundamental basis to it than "that's just what it is". It really furthered my interest in math, and while I ultimately eventually moved over to CS, it definitely had quite a fundamental impact on me back then.
The particular book I've read was in German (I still have it) and unlikely to be ideal for a 5 year old; just wanted to give this little personal anecdote somewhat related to your question.
The kid does not speak German. But I do. What was the book?
Oliver Deiser, Einführung in die Mengenlehre
Math Academy [0] and AOPS's books likely starting with their Beast Academy [1].
[0] https://www.mathacademy.com/
[1] https://artofproblemsolving.com/store/list/all-products
I don't think I was gifted per se, but a curious kid. My mom was a fan of Asimov, who had written books on a huge array of topics, and there may be a few math titles in there. But at the same time, introducing a kid with math talent to science isn't such a bad thing either.
I was thinking more of a real math book.
I wish I remembered the series of math books that my school system used. It was during the "new math" movement. We learned about sets in first grade. Proofs were introduced fairly early. There were problems for which "no answer" was the correct answer.
If you could find a collection of the Mathematical Games articles from Scientific American, those were entertaining and required little background knowledge, but conveyed the fun of math.
Geometry is a good subject because it doesn't have very many prerequisites other than basic arithmetic, and the older textbooks were mostly about proofs. (Note I'm biased, proofs are what made math come alive for me).
I was like that as a child, but after enough years of wider academic exposure as a student, decided I liked applying mathematical ability towards electronics, business, and chemicals better than average compared to becoming a real mathematician.
Science-fiction can be stimulating in that regard, someone who likes science in addition to math might be the one to turn some of it into science-reality someday :)
Eventually I came to the conclusion that the better math textbooks had more than just math. One of the most enlightening math books I had was a late 19th century antique text "Progressive Higher Arithmetic" which was never in one of my courses, but was given to me when I was an old teenager and it could be an interesting reference in any century. Not only the differences in the way teaching has been done in the past, but a nice leather-bound volume with numerous blank pages among those adjacent to the front & back covers, covered with poetry written by the original owner. With a pen and common inkwell, in beautiful handwriting there is one that I can not forget:
Remember me when death shall close
My eyelids in the last repose
And evening breezes gently wave
The grass above your school-mates grave.
Honestly, I think you might be missing something here. "Azimov on Numbers" was maybe the most real math book I read as a kid. I don't know of any other book aimed at a kid's reading level that covers aleph-null and Cantor sets.
i really enjoyed this book as a kid, it approaches math from a less formal and more fun puzzle-based approach: https://www.amazon.com/Big-Book-Brain-Games-Mathematics/dp/0...
Math Academy (not a book). $50 per month.
H.G. Wells' The Time Machine.
Beast Academy
One might ask, what exactly is the point of a reading list?
As a recommendation set between friends ("you must read Borges and Sebald! You'll love them"), fine.
But lists give the vibe of someone desperately trying to preserve The Culture, whatever that is. And of course once such a list becomes encoded in the school board or university course curriculum, it instantly becomes calcified and a chore, even if some of the entries on the list are appealing to some of the readers. Pity the teacher who has to teach /Catcher in the Rye/ for the tenth year, and pity their students.
So the real challenge is how to communicate The Culture through reading, without killing the joy. I wish I knew the answer. Perhaps it boils down to teachers being allowed to innovate. Maybe we need more teachers with big theater kid energy. I dont know. Id be interested to know what happens in non-Western cultures too...is this problem universal?
I was a member of Mensa briefly but found it boring and so let my membership lapse.
My early reading history, in order:
- a few childhood stories read by my father, - textbooks from school, - comic books! I didn't have money to buy them but found that if I went into the store while the staff were busy (before and after school) serving customers, no one noticed that I was blasting thru the latest Superman.
I paid attention in class, made good grades but didn't study much, nor did I read books unless absolutely forced to. I probably read fewer than 4 books before college. I was conscripted by my father to assist him in carpentry and auto repair (which taught me a great deal about how the world works).
I credit DC Comics for giving me a high reading speed, the ability to concentrate (possibly I should say "to attend"!8-)) and consequently, any "high IQ" that allowed me to score well on tests, win awards, make good grades and join Mensa years later. I also credit being my father's apprentice.
tl;dr Reading books on a list, even a Mensa list, will not likely make you smart.
Looking at the list, I wish that they included more non-Anglosphere authors. Skimming at it, it does seem a tad Anglo-centric with that.
The cultural canon in the USA will lean towards that. I will say that, if we are to suggest more global reading, concrete examples are always welcome! I would of course recommend Journey to the West. Even among the Four Great Classical Novels it has huge lasting influence
And then there's Beowulf, which is Anglo without the Sphere.
This is not exactly surprising for a list of books in English.
On here I recognize Richard Wright. Amazing author.
Interesting how image generation still hasn't passed the 'visual turning test'. It's still obvious 4o generated the header image here.
I think it'd be healthier to recommend teenagers read science fiction.
It actually gets them to enjoy reading -- while thinking about society (and technology), and stoking their ambition.
What a mediocre list of material.
They all pretty much sit within a European/American spectrum of "worthy" works - there is a dominance of caucasian male thinking embodied within this list: it's not very broad, even with the odd hat tip to a Bronte sister and Maya Angelou. Nothing from 80% of the World's population, all rooted in a classical Western school of writing theory. Dull.
I also have a concern that they aren't a great foundation for a young person approaching adulthood trying to understand their place in the World and their own beliefs and values about themselves and the World they live in.
As you would expect of adult literature, some of them have sex and sexuality as themes that are explored by protagonists, subplots and subtexts. While this is something we should expect literature to play a part in, and it is of course healthy for adults to consider their own feelings relating to sex and sexuality based on their own contexts and needs through art forms like literature, I'm not sure throwing that at a 9th grader feels quite right. Maybe it is. I think it depends on the child.
The worst crime here though, is that this list is composed of books that are only considered good by the "educated" literarti.
There aren't many page turners that will keep a younger mind engaged and excited. There's only a few that stand out as an opportunity to let a curious reader explore their changing selves through the context of an interesting imagined World - the only real point of literature - in a way that will stimulate and excite their curiosity for the World they are actually growing up in.
And y'know, I'm a huge Shakespeare fan (I live in London, regular attendee of Shakespeare productions from all the usual companies), but this is leaning into some weird material. All 154 sonnets? Much Ado, Hamlet & King Lear, but no Romeo & Juliet or Macbeth? Huh.
Also, I see you, Ayn Rand fans. I see you. No. The Fountainhead is not a good book, she isn't a good writer, and the philosophy she espoused is not justification for you behaving the way you do. Don't try and get grades 9-12 into your little weird cult, you unsympathetic self-absorbed weirdos.
Yet, many if not most people would like an education that is informed by educated literati. People pay big money for it, for good reason. Disadvantaged kids are absolutely starved for it, in more ways than one. Is the "worst crime" when they are exposed to it or aren't?
>I also have a concern that they aren't a great foundation for a young person approaching adulthood trying to understand their place in the World and their own beliefs and values about themselves and the World they live in.
Is your concern valuable because your opinion of a standard literature list is that the books are mediocre or provide a mediocre education? Why should we care that you, specifically, are concerned? Or why you, specifically, see the list as mediocre and dull?
You seem to be implying that literature has to socialize kids to values (those that you prefer, I assume). You seem to be perturbed that everything that a child reads may not cater to that goal.
What I see is an essay whining about how standard English lit material isn't teaching kids political material that the writer prefers.
Ironic to the post-author's role as a literature critic, the post is too indirect and employs too many words toward expressing that complaint.
> Yet, many if not most people would like an education that is informed by educated literati.
That's because in the past showing that you're "educated" by virtue signalling a particular experience with a particular type of education would allow you an inside track to social groups and employment of value.
If there is anywhere in the World where we should question the value of that, it's on a forum dedicated to helping entrepreneurs build new things and to disrupt the World away from that kind of thinking.
> You seem to be implying that literature has to socialize kids to values
Literature does socialize kids to values, whether you or I like it or not. It socializes adults too: that's the point of literature. We're all just stochastic parrots. Literature - and all other art - shapes what we parrot.
I think that when choosing a list of eminent reading material for 9-12th graders, you're implicitly choosing a set of values for them. It should require thoughtfulness as to what you're hoping to achieve with it. I'm questioning the values presented in this list in terms of breadth, depth and appropriateness.
And yes, I also happen to think a lot of it is very dull writing liked by fusty old men in universities, rather than being a list of material that makes a person of impressionable age take something of it to use for themselves as they go out into the World. It's a missed opportunity. It is therefore dull and mediocre, in my view.
I'm allowed to share my view on this mater as a comment, on a site dedicated to people sharing their opinions as comments. I'm sorry that my doing so seems to have upset you.
What I see in your reply is a monologue expressing how you are affronted by someone saying things you disagree with for reasons you can't explain other than you seem to find it tiresome, and you're not quite sure why that's allowed to go without comment, so here, here's your comment on it, but why on Earth did that person post that comment that is just so... so... commenty... ?
Thank you for highlighting the salient point: this list has a reason for existing. It's not just a set of books chosen at random or some such, it's a small group explicitly selected.
As such it's entirely valid to question both the selections themselves as well as the purpose for creating the list in the first place.
As an example, I find it very difficult to imagine the world being improves in anyway whatsoever by requiring people to read fountain head.
Also, is there a single book on here written in the past 60 years?
Great point on the European/American spectrum.
I read, on average, 100 books a year. Anna Karenina was on my list for a long time and I read it back in 2023.
With 100 books a year, I’m averaging two books a week. It took me three full months to make it through that slog; hoping to find one fucking redeeming factor for it.
Let me tell you: there is absolutely no reason anyone should read that novel unless the intention is to make one hate reading.
Can we please stop making kids read books that fucking suck while telling them it’s somehow good for them to do so? We wonder why reading is seen as a slog and few do it; instead focusing on their phones or Netflix watchlist.
The first paragraph of the Wikipedia article tells you all you need to know about Anna Karenina.
> By the time he was finishing up the last installments, Tolstoy was in an anguished state of mind and, having come to hate [the book], finished it unwillingly.
Excellent catch, although I loved that book!
This isn’t a criticism on you - in fact this isn’t anything about you specifically however the 100 books a year made me think of this.
The folks I know who read a lot more than average tend these fall into camps:
The ones who seem to have the best recall for the material they’ve read - like recalling very specific things from any given book they’ve read. They read about 12-16 books a year.
Then you have the ferocious readers, some of which I can personally attest read anywhere from 30-60 books a year, maybe even more. They however don’t have the same strength of recall. They can often give good synopsis of information they’ve read, but will struggle to recall specifics without looking it up or having to find a book in question and re-skim it for more relevant information etc.
Now achievement wise both groups have done fine but the methodical 12-16 books a year folks seem to make more knowledge gains over time - forgetting less stuff, basically.
I’m not sure which is better, or even if there is a better, but this is something I’ve noticed about volume vs time taken to digest books slower.
People who read 100+ books a year are probably doing it for entertainment, not knowledge. It seems like an odd point of comparison.
Do you read a lot of short works? Fast reader? or just constantly reading at every opportunity? That’s a huge amount of reading — I was able to hit 20 books last year but that included a re-read of all 7 Harry Potters, so quite light reading.
Do you feel like you retain things from all 100 books?
If you take the assumption that most books average out to ~350 pages in length, then you get a pretty good heuristic that if you read a minimum of N pages per day, then you're likely to complete at least N books per year.
10 pages per day gets you 10 books per year, 50 for 50, 100 for 100, etc.
Pages read is a more useful metric in general. A process goal that leads to the outcome.
400p books on average. To respond to another comment: I retain every book I’ve ever read to the point I cannot read the same book twice.
That’s impressive, and I’d say is mental recall far above average. I applaud you for taking every advantage of it possible
Phones make it pretty easy these days, just read a chapter of your book instead of a hn comment page.
So the natural question that follows is what are your favourite authors and genres?
I used to be VERY into police procedurals: John Sanford, Lee Child, and William Kent Krueger. I still read them, but during lockdown I made a conscious decision to widen my horizons.
Some of my favorites over the last year:
All the Light We Cannot See by Anthony Doerr
Most of Joe Abercrombie; particularly the First Law series.
God of the Woods by Liz Moore
In Cold Blood by Truman Capote
Life We Bury by Allen Eskens
Hench by Natalie Zina Walschots
Why do you assume your experience is the same an everyone’s? Is yours the only opinion in the world? I would expect someone who reads a thousand books a decade to have a more nuanced opinion. Instead you spew self righteous arrogance.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
Our daughter counted AK as her favorite book for years, though now I suspect she'd choose Little Women or any of the last five William Gibson books as her fav.
She's read many of these books multiple times. Of course, she's never had a reading list to do, so I'm sure it helps that she chose them on her own. She also read Langston Hughes self-collected "Best of" treasury he released towards the end of his life. And, she has just bailed on other books, like effing Wuthering Heights, ick!
Good luck with James Joyce kids.
I can't imagine caring what Mensa thinks anybody should read, let alone thinking that anybody should care what I think about what Mensa thinks anybody should read. And between the interminable list of several-sentence-long book reports (...why?), the writing is just one bland, melodramatic, Very Emphatic "not X but Y" after another.
Mensa makes me think of two things:
Groucho's quote "I'd never be a member of any club that would have me as a member."
And one of our favorite Columbo episodes (all free on Tubi) that features a murder in a very Mensa-style club, titled "The Bye-Bye Sky High I.Q. Murder Case".
Yeah, the antagonists in Columbo are always "elitists" ... at least by the standards of the time of the shows.
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